Curse

Snow Bunny · Dec 16, 2008, 05:43 PM // 17:43

Victorious does more damage automatically than eremite's does with all conditions filled.

Stop sucking.

Earth · Dec 16, 2008, 09:07 PM // 21:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

I prefer Eremites because it allows me to put more damage within a small window of time.

This. Eremite's has a faster attack speed, but who cares really? It has the same recharge as Victorious, and does less damage. It also costs the same.

Eremite's has no advantage over Victorious in PvE.

MegaVolti · Dec 17, 2008, 04:02 AM // 04:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

PvE isn't about spiking individuals, it's about how fast you can slaughter massive herds of monsters; at least so this forum would make out.

Exactly. Let's assume permanent attacks and only one skill used. Either [[Eremite's Attack] or [[Victorious Sweep]. Let's also assume the condition for Eremite's is met, shouldn't really be too difficult for a Dervish.

Eremites will give 30 bonus damage, victorious will give 29 at 14, both triggering every 4 seconds.
Auto-attack will get you 25 average damage (plus criticals, which work the same for both attacks and are therefor neglected).

Using [[Victorious Sweep], in 10 seconds you will attack 5 times, two of which are with the attack skill, resulting in 3*25+2*54 = 183 damage
Using [[Eremite's Attack], in 10 seconds you will attack 6 times, two of which are with the attack skill, resulting in 4*25+2*55 = 210 damage

Clear win for Eremite's. Eremite's is even more superior if you take into account that you won't be using one attack skill alone, so faster attack will let you follow up with other skills faster.

That being said, a really good attack combo is:
[Victorious Sweep][Eremite's Attack][Mystic Sweep]
Awesome DPS and goes with whatever avatar you want as elite. There really is no reason not to take all of them

Just make sure you got orders support for infinite energy so spamming those is not an issue.

-Lotus- · Dec 17, 2008, 06:13 AM // 06:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by MegaVolti

fail test

first. you assumed maximum damage from eremite's when this just doesn't happen that often.

second. you assume players are using their skills correctly. this doesn't happen in PvE. People are either to stupid or dont care enough to wait til just after an attck lands to throw an attack skill, avoiding the interval between swings.

Darkside · Dec 17, 2008, 07:35 AM // 07:35

I was going to skip this thread since the op already said he figured out what he was going to do but after reading some of the stupid comments posted here I was compelled to reply.

First off when your friend said "because it says so on PvX" you should have just ignored him from that point on since anything else after that is going to be full of stupid. Second if I teamed up with a dervish that had either eremite's attack or Victorious sweep on their bar I would be pleased because they are both great skills. I don't really consider one better then the other because they have different applications. Victorious is a nice nice way to deal good damage and maybe heal yourself while eremites is a great spike skill.

Someone stated that eremites was garbage is PvE because its all about how fast a mob goes down...well the faster you take down one enemy or multiple ones (if they happen to be adjacent while you swing) the faster the mob dies. So saying a spike skill is useless is just dumb.

MegaVolti · Dec 17, 2008, 01:16 PM // 13:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Lotus-

first. you assumed maximum damage from eremite's when this just doesn't happen that often.

second. you assume players are using their skills correctly. this doesn't happen in PvE. People are either to stupid or dont care enough to wait til just after an attck lands to throw an attack skill, avoiding the interval between swings.

Seriously, when is a Dervish ever running around with less then 3 enchantments? You always have at least 2 of your own, most of the time 3, and the additional 2-3 Monk enchantments that always fly around in battles.
The condition is almost always met, nothing wrong about that assumption.

And yea, if people are too stupid to use their skills then bringing any skill is pointless. Let's just auto-attack from now on because nobody knows how to use stuff ...

The fact remains that if you have to chose between Victorious Sweep and Eremite's Attack, for DPS Eremite's is the better choice.
But as I said, both are great skills and most good Dervish bars will just bring both.

trankle · Dec 17, 2008, 02:22 PM // 14:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by MegaVolti

Seriously, when is a Dervish ever running around with less then 3 enchantments? You always have at least 2 of your own, most of the time 3, and the additional 2-3 Monk enchantments that always fly around in battles.
The condition is almost always met, nothing wrong about that assumption.

That's the condition for [Mystic Sweep], not [eremite's attack].

Cebe · Dec 17, 2008, 02:54 PM // 14:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by MegaVolti

Eremites will give 30 bonus damage, victorious will give 29 at 14, both triggering every 4 seconds.
Auto-attack will get you 25 average damage (plus criticals, which work the same for both attacks and are therefor neglected).

Using [[Victorious Sweep], in 10 seconds you will attack 5 times, two of which are with the attack skill, resulting in 3*25+2*54 = 183 damage
Using [[Eremite's Attack], in 10 seconds you will attack 6 times, two of which are with the attack skill, resulting in 4*25+2*55 = 210 damage

I decided to carry out a few experiments at the Master of Damage though I don't know how useful these are in the grand scheme of things.

Using Eremite's Attack under Heart of Fury for about a minute (keeping Heart of Fury up as much as possible and auto attacking whilst using Eremite's on recharge) gave 41 DPS.

Using Victorious Sweep under Heart of Fury for about a minute (keeping Heart of Fury up as much as possible and auto attacking whilst using Victorious on recharge) gave 42 DPS.

So, purely on the data given above, the skills alone are comparable in terms of DPS. Of course, Eremite's fluctuates somewhat depending on whether there are adjacent foes or not, but then Victorious has the health gain.

I then tested using the following: [Heart of Fury][Aura of Holy Might (Luxon)@8][Mystic Sweep][Zealous Sweep] and either [Eremite's Attack (PvE)] or [Victorious Sweep]. I spammed skills on recharge, prioritising Eremite's and Victorious, and obtained the following (Master of Damage was attacked for about a minute on each occaision):

DPS for build with Eremite's Attack: 64.
DPS for build with Victorious Sweep: 73.

Despite Victorious is still higher, there's still not a huge amount in it, and certainly does not validate the claim that Eremite's gives you a "huge gain in DPS".

Yes, Taking all three is always nice, but the Thread is about one versus the other. Given all the facts I simply cannot concede that given the choice between Eremites or Victorious, Eremite's is more worthwhile every time.

I think the Conclusion needs to be that neither skill is vastly better than the other, and they each have different bonuses; If you want the health gain and don't want to concern yourself with conditional damage then Victorious is pretty good, If you like to try to get as many enemies adjacent to you as possible (such as when using Splinter Weapon) and like to think that hitting quicker is doing you a massive favour then go Eremite's. If you have two spare slots - take both.

Sirius-NZ · Dec 20, 2008, 07:53 AM // 07:53

I still manage to time Eremite's/Mystic properly for boosting number of attacks even when I'm being lazy and don't have Lyssa up or am not aiming for skill activations. It's not really hard - you just start one right after a previous skill activation or during the middle of a swing.

That said I think the previous post sums up the issue fairly well. Whether it's a particularly important debate I don't even know!

MegaVolti · Dec 20, 2008, 07:07 PM // 19:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by trankle

That's the condition for [Mystic Sweep], not [eremite's attack].

Oh right, I confused these two

Mystic should of cause be the first 3/4s attack to bring since the condition is easier to get. Still, you want to hit 3 guys with a scythe anyway so if you are doing it right the condition will also be fulfilled most of the time. And the only time you will not meet the condition is when you want to spike a lonely priest. Guess what, the 3/4s attack speed is just awesome for that.

Both [[Mystic Sweep] and [[Eremite's Attack] should be on every Derv bar whenever possible. They are one of the most awesome attack skills ever in the game, especially for the slow scythes.

Sirius-NZ · Dec 20, 2008, 11:39 PM // 23:39

It really depends on your build; some aren't as enchant-heavy as others, but if you're expecting to maintain 2 or more enchants all the time, mystic probably has precedence. Whether you take both depends quite a bit on how much bar space you have left, but as always if you can you should. I don't use Victorious Sweep that much I have to admit - usually substitute Wild Blow for it instead - but it's a good third attack skill if you don't need stance removal.

MegaVolti · Dec 21, 2008, 12:56 AM // 00:56

A little off topic but imho the "depends on the build" problem actually isn't really a problem.

A Dervish just has to bring an Avatar. Why? Because A/D is better at anything a Dervish can do without Avatars. A/D just do so much more damage with scythes, it simply doesn't make much sense to use a scythe elite on a Dervish (because the A/D could do that, too - only better).

So there are Avatars. Plus AotHM and Eternal, some IAS is also important. So the default bar leaves 4 free slots. The best skills for that are, as mentioned above, [[Mystic Sweep], [[Eremite's Attack] and [[Victorious Sweep]. As 4th it's either [[Faithful Intervention] if no orders support is present or [[Chilling Victory] if orders support makes you have unlimited mana. [[Patient Spirit] is also awesome for gaining mana, monk heroes should bring it. Can of cause be switched for stance removal ([[Wild Blow]) if needed or some other stuff for the specific area.

Sadly I don't see much room for any deviations from that scheme without either losing efficiency or being inferior to a scythe-Assassin.

Burst Cancel · Dec 21, 2008, 06:58 AM // 06:58

The A/D argument is unpersuasive on two grounds:
1) MSDB >> A/D, especially in HM where build might actually matter. So if you're A/*, A/D isn't a rational option to begin with.
2) A/Ds don't get access to Wild Blow or SY!.

I'd also argue that unless you're playing some variation of tank 'n spank, you're vastly overestimating the frequency of meeting the condition for Eremite's. The fact that you want your attacks to always hit three enemies doesn't mean it actually happens.

-Lotus- · Dec 21, 2008, 04:36 PM // 16:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

The A/D argument is unpersuasive on two grounds:
1) MSDB >> A/D, especially in HM where build might actually matter. So if you're A/*, A/D isn't a rational option to begin with.
2) A/Ds don't get access to Wild Blow or SY!.

I'd also argue that unless you're playing some variation of tank 'n spank, you're vastly overestimating the frequency of meeting the condition for Eremite's. The fact that you want your attacks to always hit three enemies doesn't mean it actually happens.

that's what i was about to say....

Marverick · Dec 21, 2008, 06:30 PM // 18:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Lotus-

first. you assumed maximum damage from eremite's when this just doesn't happen that often.

second. you assume players are using their skills correctly. this doesn't happen in PvE. People are either to stupid or dont care enough to wait til just after an attck lands to throw an attack skill, avoiding the interval between swings.

Umm... this is PvE and you're on the frontline... you will usually get at least 2 enemies adjacent to you from any decent sized mob, otherwise you're not aggroing properly or your noob monks are running around frenzying on the frontlines...
And 3 adjacent enemies is not that rare. This is adjacent to you, not adjacent to you and your target.

Quote:

whilst using Eremite's on recharge

That's where you fail. You use Eremite's directly after an attack to maximize its quick activation time. You don't use it on recharge.

shoyon456 · Dec 21, 2008, 10:01 PM // 22:01

I prefer Victorious Sweep over Etermite's for a couple reasons:

Victorious has no condition for the + damage. Although you will generally hit 3 enemies at a time in PvE (which is where I spend most of my time), this is not always the case.

Victorious, with a decent scythe mastery rank, gives + 60 something health per hit. If you hit 3 enemies with Etermite's, you get a nice 1/4 sec +27 damage attack. However, hitting 3 enemies with Victorious gives about that same damage PLUS around 180 health.

In short, if you're going for a quick kill, then take Etermite's. But, if you are going for sustainable damage and health, take Victorious.

Please note: This is for Derv Primaries. I consider the A/D an abomination that needs to get the nerf bat 10x over.

Marverick · Dec 22, 2008, 12:21 AM // 00:21

Victorious Sweep as a health gain.... ick
First of all, enemies in PvE have abnormally large amounts of health. This means that in order to get the heath gain, you must be near full health and the enemy must be near death.
In that situation, do you really need the health?

Mystic Vigor combined with quick activation attacks and Heart of Fury is usually sufficient self-healing. Victorious Sweep isn't needed.